tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2294170801673753291.post3387066616095739011..comments2023-04-04T08:07:42.350-04:00Comments on SBC Plodder: Sorry, the SBC isn't one mammoth megachurch...William Thorntonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12502242710436994507noreply@blogger.comBlogger30125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2294170801673753291.post-90546890332329824462011-04-14T12:59:09.293-04:002011-04-14T12:59:09.293-04:00I still have people in my church that talk about t...I still have people in my church that talk about tithing to the CP. From my understanding, that has been common language from my predecessors. Of course, I don't agree with it. We tithe in church, during worship, as an act of worship to our Lord. It isn't some sort of dues we pass on to the state and national bodies. But, I guess it has been helpful to create a false identity/connection Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2294170801673753291.post-91189171217358328832011-04-14T09:35:10.643-04:002011-04-14T09:35:10.643-04:00Anonymous:
You said:"The churches through th...Anonymous:<br /><br />You said:"The churches through their messengers choose to give the authority to the trustees and they in turn choose who will lead the organization. If you can't deal with that, then go be something other than a Southern Baptist. Sounds to me like a lot of people have a lot of problems submitting to anyone's leadership. "<br /><br />Got to love that--"Tom Parkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12861689101266081092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2294170801673753291.post-57085262491821257702011-04-14T09:05:11.044-04:002011-04-14T09:05:11.044-04:00Megachurch pastors get to tell their members to su...Megachurch pastors get to tell their members to submit to their authority. SBC leaders don't get to do this, nor have I ever heard one demand that. <br /><br />The SBC is not a megachurch. There is no authority that runs between any SBC agency or institution and any pastor, church, or member. <br /><br />...but keep punching that 'submit to authority' tar baby, brethren, if you wish. William Thorntonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12502242710436994507noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2294170801673753291.post-26744552095558104172011-04-14T08:27:59.814-04:002011-04-14T08:27:59.814-04:00The churches through their messengers choose to gi...The churches through their messengers choose to give the authority to the trustees and they in turn choose who will lead the organization. If you can't deal with that, then go be something other than a Southern Baptist. Sounds to me like a lot of people have a lot of problems submitting to anyone's leadership.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2294170801673753291.post-36828086306491997502011-04-14T05:47:51.502-04:002011-04-14T05:47:51.502-04:00Jared:
I for one vote for his title to be servant...Jared:<br /><br />I for one vote for his title to be servant of NAMB instead of President.<br /><br />I noticed you used the word controls 3 times in your last comment to me.<br /><br />Why are you so focused on that word?<br /><br />Is he the sole control of NAMB?<br /><br />BTW it is not really nice to tell some one they are being ridiculous when you are having a "conversation".Tom Parkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12861689101266081092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2294170801673753291.post-9276922960828705672011-04-14T00:44:14.903-04:002011-04-14T00:44:14.903-04:00Noone submits to anyone's authority any longer...Noone submits to anyone's authority any longer and look at the pathetic mess we have created. Just look at the SBC and then follow it down to your local church. A sad testimony to believers who so grandly proclaim they believe in the Bible and there are specific Biblical admonitions about authority and whose authority to follow.<br /><br />There's an old saying that says, "you get Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2294170801673753291.post-18320861847661280742011-04-13T23:24:01.292-04:002011-04-13T23:24:01.292-04:00Tom, you're being ridiculous. He's a serv...Tom, you're being ridiculous. He's a servant that controls NAMB? Or, if it's the trustees, then they're servants that control NAMB. Otherwise, no one controls NAMB.<br /><br />NAMB is indeed a servant of SBC churches, but it's not lead by you, me, or your church, or my church.<br /><br />BTW: I wonder we Ezell's title is "President"? Shouldn't it be "Jared Moorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17020789108248163960noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2294170801673753291.post-3431724776217549332011-04-13T23:06:43.811-04:002011-04-13T23:06:43.811-04:00Jared:
I really beg to differ, it is not about se...Jared:<br /><br />I really beg to differ, it is not about semantics.<br /><br />You said:"William, does Ezell have authority over NAMB or not?"<br /><br />Your above statement is pretty clear what you are saying about authority.<br /><br />You've got it backwards Ezell is to be a servant and not a King.Tom Parkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12861689101266081092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2294170801673753291.post-77353121641705837792011-04-13T22:27:08.546-04:002011-04-13T22:27:08.546-04:00We're arguing semantics.We're arguing semantics.Jared Moorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17020789108248163960noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2294170801673753291.post-79447245942259457122011-04-13T19:10:55.957-04:002011-04-13T19:10:55.957-04:00William:
You said to Jared:"Look at it this ...William:<br /><br />You said to Jared:"Look at it this way. Following your principles we would be submitting to the moderates and liberals who controlled the convention pre-conservative resurgence. <br /><br />Time to give this one up, bro. :)"<br /><br />I do wonder if he has thought about this. It works both ways.<br /><br />I have been a SB for 37 years and have never ever thought Tom Parkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12861689101266081092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2294170801673753291.post-61168759567998151882011-04-13T18:21:15.973-04:002011-04-13T18:21:15.973-04:00No, we're not agreeing so long as you cling to...No, we're not agreeing so long as you cling to your language. Language is everything here.<br /><br />There is no authority between NAMB and me or my church. I don't get a paycheck signed by the NAMB payroll guy. <br /><br />Cooperation presumes the voluntary agreement between parties, not any submission out of authority. <br /><br />And, please, we absolutely don't submit to the William Thorntonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12502242710436994507noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2294170801673753291.post-38963340113162897792011-04-13T18:03:09.979-04:002011-04-13T18:03:09.979-04:00Tom, who has authority over NAMB if Ezell does not...Tom, who has authority over NAMB if Ezell does not? Who is leading NAMB, hiring and firing, etc.?Jared Moorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17020789108248163960noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2294170801673753291.post-61801490107952562552011-04-13T18:02:26.038-04:002011-04-13T18:02:26.038-04:00William, we're agreeing; it's just the lan...William, we're agreeing; it's just the language used is different. If you follow a leader that you disagree with, I assume you're submitting to that leader, since you're following without agreement... since it's not your idea that your following, but the idea of another.<br /><br />I thought I explained what I meant over at Voices through numerous comments?Jared Moorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17020789108248163960noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2294170801673753291.post-75638770201471642942011-04-13T18:00:18.731-04:002011-04-13T18:00:18.731-04:00Jared, I just read your explanation over on SBCTom...Jared, I just read your explanation over on SBCTomorrow, that "I'm referring to following a leader even when we disagree" etc. <br /><br />This is not the way we operate. Again, your appeal to any biblical principle involving submission of authority in this context is misguided. We don't follow any SBC leader out of any principle of submission to authority because there are no William Thorntonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12502242710436994507noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2294170801673753291.post-30815911034755981092011-04-13T17:53:08.817-04:002011-04-13T17:53:08.817-04:00Not my issue and not exactly the language you used...Not my issue and not exactly the language you used. It might be helpful if you explained what you mean by "we should submit to his authority over [NAMB]" along with submitting to the majority of churches voting for the GCR. The former is meaningless in our polity. The latter is inaccurate, no church voted for the GCR.<br /><br />This language of submitting to authority is simply William Thorntonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12502242710436994507noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2294170801673753291.post-44868130392816333542011-04-13T17:48:31.660-04:002011-04-13T17:48:31.660-04:00Jared:
I will let William answer your question of...Jared:<br /><br />I will let William answer your question of "does Ezell have authority over NAMB or not?"<br /><br />But my response to that question is absolutely no he does not!Tom Parkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12861689101266081092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2294170801673753291.post-22936294072556290102011-04-13T16:47:52.240-04:002011-04-13T16:47:52.240-04:00William, does Ezell have authority over NAMB or no...William, does Ezell have authority over NAMB or not?Jared Moorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17020789108248163960noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2294170801673753291.post-16787651680417896252011-04-13T15:41:44.071-04:002011-04-13T15:41:44.071-04:00What would it mean and look like to submit to Ezel...What would it mean and look like to submit to Ezell as NAMB president?<br /><br />What would it mean and look like to not submit to Ezell as NAMB president?Markhttp://hereiblog.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2294170801673753291.post-13279279771057274632011-04-13T15:35:55.905-04:002011-04-13T15:35:55.905-04:00If you drop the business about submitting to autho...If you drop the business about submitting to authority and appeal to SBCers to give Ezell and the new NAMB a fair hearing, to eschew harsh and rancorous criticism, and to pray for them even if you disagree with some of their decisions...I'm fine with that. I'd bet that that is all any of our leaders expect.<br /><br />The appeal to authority is not weak it is invalid and dangerous. That William Thorntonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12502242710436994507noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2294170801673753291.post-52878891442609370642011-04-13T13:09:51.856-04:002011-04-13T13:09:51.856-04:00Whoever said:"God has clearly allowed [Kevin]...Whoever said:"God has clearly allowed [Kevin] Ezell [new NAMB CEO] the place of authority, and now it is your job (and mine), for your own sanctification in Christ (and mine), to submit to his authority at NAMB so long as he does not violate the Scriptures."<br /><br />Was this another way to say "God's man."Tom Parkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12861689101266081092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2294170801673753291.post-36822736072359228712011-04-13T13:04:59.259-04:002011-04-13T13:04:59.259-04:00Actually, there not being "authority" is...Actually, there not being "authority" is the essential for Baptists.Arcenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2294170801673753291.post-13614333149733578112011-04-13T12:51:02.182-04:002011-04-13T12:51:02.182-04:00Jared:
You said:"and the fact that we're...Jared:<br /><br />You said:"and the fact that we're disagreeing over non-essentials"<br /><br />What if it is essentials?<br /><br />This "authority" thing is quite a tricky item and IMO it is not a non-essential.Tom Parkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12861689101266081092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2294170801673753291.post-87414314970139331342011-04-13T12:46:15.167-04:002011-04-13T12:46:15.167-04:00William, yes, I do agree that the appeal to author...William, yes, I do agree that the appeal to authority is weak if we're talking about necessary submission; however, Ezell is the leader of NAMB. I think for the sake of gospel cooperation, out of respect for our brothers and sisters that voted maybe contrary to us, and the fact that we're disagreeing over non-essentials, should lead to our cooperation and support. Although I don't Jared Moorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17020789108248163960noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2294170801673753291.post-56678457470709601462011-04-13T12:40:19.224-04:002011-04-13T12:40:19.224-04:00Brother Jared,
I do think however that it does me...Brother Jared,<br /><br /><i>I do think however that it does mean we should support these entities even when we disagree over non-essentials.</i><br /><br />If you really believe this, then you should express your discouragement with Dr. Kevin Ezell being elected President of NAMB. Why? It was Dr. Ezell that "disengaged" when he was in disagreement of "non-essentials."<br />Tim Rogershttp://www.rebekah1.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2294170801673753291.post-86837930013628067402011-04-13T11:52:10.742-04:002011-04-13T11:52:10.742-04:00There's a big problem with the appeal to autho...There's a big problem with the appeal to authority in all this Jared. Do you recognize that? <br /><br />Thanks for the comments and this is a legitimate, perhaps critical, discussion to have.William Thorntonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12502242710436994507noreply@blogger.com