tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2294170801673753291.post4935658961982405731..comments2023-04-04T08:07:42.350-04:00Comments on SBC Plodder: Housing Allowance: Rick Warren giveth, will Ed Young taketh away?William Thorntonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12502242710436994507noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2294170801673753291.post-83647271299550319132012-09-05T12:49:35.279-04:002012-09-05T12:49:35.279-04:00Here's my rebuttal to Brian Prucey's point...Here's my rebuttal to Brian Prucey's points:<br /><br />(1)<br /><br />The 1st Amendment refers to "religion", not "religions". "All religions" equal "religion" and the 1st Amendment prohibits laws "respecting the establishment of religion". It's not that IRC 107 benefits "clergy", but that it benefits ONLY "clergy&Robert Batyhttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/Maury_and_Baty/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2294170801673753291.post-88893021827991140322012-09-05T10:58:50.467-04:002012-09-05T10:58:50.467-04:00William, I've tried to coalesce my arguments s...William, I've tried to coalesce my arguments support the housing allowance as not violating the Establishment Clause into the following points. Since I don't blog, please forgive me if I've co-opted yours.<br /><br />I think the establishment of religion challenge to the clergy housing allowance will fail for several reasons:<br /><br />1. All religions are treated equally with Brian Pruceyhttp://www.elmgrovebaptist.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2294170801673753291.post-75944544089288257742012-09-04T12:03:20.036-04:002012-09-04T12:03:20.036-04:00Thanks for the comment, Brian. While fairness will...Thanks for the comment, Brian. While fairness will probably come into play, the core issue in the current legal challenge is whether or not the HA constitutes an establishment of religion. We will see.<br /><br />As mentioned several times my myself and others, ministers who live in pastoriums qualify their housing allowance in a non-religious manner thereby removing the risk of it being Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00318761483549322086noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2294170801673753291.post-68081407041719553722012-09-04T10:46:52.706-04:002012-09-04T10:46:52.706-04:00Every once in a while the subject of the clergy ho...Every once in a while the subject of the clergy housing allowance rears its head. Some consider it an unconstitutional endorsement or support of religion. I disagree.<br /><br />The courts have routinely held that Congress has the power to determine what is considered “income” for income tax purposes. Congress has determined that certain payments do not constitute taxable income: military housingBrian Pruceyhttp://www.elmgrovebaptist.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2294170801673753291.post-39455570680528940672012-09-04T07:13:08.578-04:002012-09-04T07:13:08.578-04:00You are correct in stating that the HA is only all...You are correct in stating that the HA is only allowed on one home. My earlier comment was in response to the suggestion that Joe Sixpack should not be asked to subsidize clergy beach houses. I wanted to point out that there are two home situations that are consequences of the mobility of ministry, not luxury. Thanks for helping all of us keep current on this and other issues.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2294170801673753291.post-77896173910319689122012-09-03T22:55:19.254-04:002012-09-03T22:55:19.254-04:00Having made the previous comments regarding the ho...Having made the previous comments regarding the housing allowance and the Self Employment tax issues, let me state clearly, I did not opt out of Social Security taxes. While I do not judge or condemn those who did, it was not an economic decision for me. After reading the documentation, it was clear to me that my only basis for opting out would be economic. The federal government has made it Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2294170801673753291.post-64571858985538994842012-09-03T21:14:23.759-04:002012-09-03T21:14:23.759-04:00I have addressed the SS exemption in the past and ...I have addressed the SS exemption in the past and have never yet met a SBCer who had a religious objection to receiving government benefits. Those who exempted themselves made only economic arguments.<br /><br />As I understand it, ministers are no longer allowed to take the HA on more than one house.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00318761483549322086noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2294170801673753291.post-5964951400637261122012-09-03T11:52:32.406-04:002012-09-03T11:52:32.406-04:00Your articles are much needed on this subject due ...Your articles are much needed on this subject due to the dearth of discussion on this matter. However, I would like to differ with you on the Joe sixpack subsidizing clergy lake houses. I have two houses, one in a former city where I served and one in the current one. I have never had two houses before and neither one is anywhere near the beach or mountains.The housing bust has made houses that Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2294170801673753291.post-40297616019384565062012-09-03T07:20:04.520-04:002012-09-03T07:20:04.520-04:00I have noted elsewhere that most of my colleagues ...I have noted elsewhere that most of my colleagues and me likely pay far more in FICA than in income tax but I do not recall ever seeing the argument advanced for the HA that it is intended to "balance" FICA taxes. Your argument is basically the same as that given by our convention attorney, an economic one.<br /><br />If the HA is ruled unconstitutional would ministers want to be Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00318761483549322086noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2294170801673753291.post-57032413826956401992012-09-03T01:22:50.342-04:002012-09-03T01:22:50.342-04:00While there is a federal tax break for a minister ...While there is a federal tax break for a minister using a housing allowance, one needs to remember that this break helps to balance the self employment tax paid by most clergy. Ordained clergy are considered "self-employed" therefore paying the full "FICA." W-2 employees only pay 1/2 of the 15.3%. The housing allowance "balances" the overall tax liability for clergy.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2294170801673753291.post-33436913764128237752012-09-01T08:30:12.729-04:002012-09-01T08:30:12.729-04:00Peter has now published a guest column regarding t...Peter has now published a guest column regarding the prospects that the issue will become one for the presidential candidates to address:<br /><br />Here's the link:<br /><br />http://www.forbes.com/sites/peterjreilly/2012/09/01/where-do-romney-and-obama-stand-on-special-tax-status-for-ministers/<br /><br />Sincerely,<br />Robert BatyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2294170801673753291.post-73053304470733724512012-08-31T17:49:31.504-04:002012-08-31T17:49:31.504-04:00I got a notice about the Baptist Press article and...I got a notice about the Baptist Press article and posted a comment over there.<br /><br />Maybe we are starting to see a little smoke and we can get the fire lit.<br /><br />Regardless of where one stands on the issue, it needs to start getting some serious national media and public attention.<br /><br />Folks should be looking to Obama and Romney to give their position on the future of IRC 107;Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2294170801673753291.post-59001724746517293732012-08-31T17:41:42.326-04:002012-08-31T17:41:42.326-04:00Bob Allen and Associated Baptist Press has an arti...Bob Allen and Associated Baptist Press has an article on the latest development. Perhaps he keeps his ear to scintillating, informed, and witty blogs like mine. <br /><br />Regardless, this is another reason why SBCers need to get ABP's daily feed. Baptist Press just doesn't do as well in some areas.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00318761483549322086noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2294170801673753291.post-14930986797181963052012-08-31T15:22:19.298-04:002012-08-31T15:22:19.298-04:00I'll try to have you on my list of persons to ...I'll try to have you on my list of persons to contact regarding any developments I may get wind of.<br /><br />I think the Government, FFRF, and the Court are to have a telephone conference on or about September 20 in order to set the future schedule as to how the case is to proceed.<br /><br />Sincerely,<br />Robert BatyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2294170801673753291.post-23078920447797817072012-08-31T15:04:32.799-04:002012-08-31T15:04:32.799-04:00I remember you, Robert, and while Peter R. general...I remember you, Robert, and while Peter R. generally alerts me to these things, I would appreciate your keeping me informed as well.<br /><br />We will see where this goes.William Thorntonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12502242710436994507noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2294170801673753291.post-17036950235044880152012-08-31T14:45:47.006-04:002012-08-31T14:45:47.006-04:00Glad to see you picked up on the announcement rega...Glad to see you picked up on the announcement regarding these historic developments in case against IRC 107.<br /><br />We discussed this earlier.<br /><br />Remember?<br /><br />The mainstream, however, appears to still be neglecting the matter.<br /><br />Sincerely,<br />Robert BatyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2294170801673753291.post-36770146167818166692012-08-31T09:19:21.269-04:002012-08-31T09:19:21.269-04:00One of the most challenging obstacles for a pastor...One of the most challenging obstacles for a pastor applying for a mortgage is explaining to the agent the nature of an ordained minister's tax situation. How you can be considered an employee on one side of the ledger and self-employed on the other is always a difficult reality to explain.Jack Carvernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2294170801673753291.post-55897014118190149192012-08-31T07:56:38.597-04:002012-08-31T07:56:38.597-04:00Originally the allowance was based on a real need,...Originally the allowance was based on a real need, but now it’s simply an entitlement that is not need-based, which reference to $71K underscores, thus not justifiable. Pastors apparently are no less selfish than anyone else, but given this, they might be more so. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com