tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2294170801673753291.post4800790077911781043..comments2023-04-04T08:07:42.350-04:00Comments on SBC Plodder: How do you explain your government tax break, the clergy Housing Allowance?William Thorntonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12502242710436994507noreply@blogger.comBlogger26125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2294170801673753291.post-6825075868788589172012-09-04T16:17:17.414-04:002012-09-04T16:17:17.414-04:00The SBC compensation study does not give the media...The SBC compensation study does not give the median. They use the mean which is labeled the "average."<br /><br />Lesson on some Southern Baptists: We sometimes feel entitled to our own facts, data or no data.<br /><br />I am unaware of a better source for SBC compensation than the one cited.<br /><br />We should all be Episcopalians for compensation purposes, I suppose.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00318761483549322086noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2294170801673753291.post-31762648920772477532012-09-04T15:59:25.070-04:002012-09-04T15:59:25.070-04:00The term "average" seems to be a bit of ...The term "average" seems to be a bit of a problem. It is often used generically. Is the number you are citing the mean (add them up and divide by the number that are there) or the median. (Half are more than that/ half are less).<br /><br />The median does tend to be a better measurement of central tendency because it is not skewed by exteme results. In a normal distribution the mean Peter Reilly CPAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10199307021804040667noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2294170801673753291.post-17835550944406160032012-09-04T15:43:17.955-04:002012-09-04T15:43:17.955-04:00There are about 3000 respondents in the GuideStone...There are about 3000 respondents in the GuideStone compensation survey for the states I used. An average with that large a data set is not preposterous. I have never used the term "typical" as you did. I use what the survey used, "average." <br /><br />...of course there was that statistician who famously drowned in a river that averaged six inches in depth.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00318761483549322086noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2294170801673753291.post-21196255663477495892012-09-04T15:03:35.209-04:002012-09-04T15:03:35.209-04:00William if four men make 20,000 and one makes 200,...William if four men make 20,000 and one makes 200,000 their average pay is 56,000. It is proposterus to say the typical pastor in that group makes 56,000. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2294170801673753291.post-76628179271845262162012-09-04T13:16:12.182-04:002012-09-04T13:16:12.182-04:00Brian,
I am looking forward to the federal Distri...Brian,<br /><br />I am looking forward to the federal District, Appeals and Supreme Courts resolving the matter of our disagreement over the legal/constitutional analysis of the issue.<br /><br />It just can't come soon enough to suit me.<br /><br />Sincerely,<br />Robert BatyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2294170801673753291.post-17146570616877886252012-09-04T12:47:30.245-04:002012-09-04T12:47:30.245-04:00Sorry, meant to say "Sixteenth" Amendmen...Sorry, meant to say "Sixteenth" Amendment. Fouled by autocorrect again!Brian Pruceyhttp://www.elmgrovebaptist.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2294170801673753291.post-73890887549402266422012-09-04T12:44:45.468-04:002012-09-04T12:44:45.468-04:00One of my ministries in our local association is t...One of my ministries in our local association is to go into churches and educate treasurers and stewardship committees on various aspects of church financial management including the clergy housing allowance. I give a little history lesson.<br /><br />I tell them that this provision of the tax code is similar to the tax-free housing and sustenance allowances military members receive. A hundred Brian Pruceyhttp://www.elmgrovebaptist.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2294170801673753291.post-31917075414571654982012-09-04T12:08:26.883-04:002012-09-04T12:08:26.883-04:00Anonymous 9:30, so many people have trashed my poi...Anonymous 9:30, so many people have trashed my point that used the $57k average salary that I will have do clarify and expand it.<br /><br />The average full time senior pastor makes around $57k according to the data. You cannot say that the average pastor does NOT make this unless you have data, so I'm all eyes and ears if you have data. <br /><br />I only use the facts that I have, not the Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00318761483549322086noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2294170801673753291.post-39144449947744687212012-09-04T09:30:53.731-04:002012-09-04T09:30:53.731-04:00The average income of SBC pastors is 57 thousand d...The average income of SBC pastors is 57 thousand dollars. However if you think the average pastor makes this you are fooling yourself. In my association you can take most any three pastors and add their salaries together and they do not equal 60 thousand. That figure is so skewed. <br /><br />As to an employee paying both halves of social security, I am about to mail a check to the IRS for my Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2294170801673753291.post-47036687088828812952012-09-04T08:59:23.370-04:002012-09-04T08:59:23.370-04:00Uh oh.
I would guess that there would be some leg...Uh oh.<br /><br />I would guess that there would be some legislative pressure to nail this down if the IRS got agressive. Maybe we could get Rick Warren to retire and get on it.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00318761483549322086noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2294170801673753291.post-7951611510026747522012-09-04T08:24:34.424-04:002012-09-04T08:24:34.424-04:00Interestingly the treatment of whether a retiremen...Interestingly the treatment of whether a retirement payment can be excluded as housing allowance is one of those things that the IRS has refused to rule on.Peter Reilly CPAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10199307021804040667noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2294170801673753291.post-86387205363367748942012-09-04T06:59:36.983-04:002012-09-04T06:59:36.983-04:00What am I trying to accomplish?
1. To inform reade...What am I trying to accomplish?<br />1. To inform readers that there is an active constitutional challenge to the HA.<br />2. To show that there are uses of the HA that are unjustifiable and odious to the general public, were they to find out.<br />3. To ask my, presumably, mostly SBC clergy readers, exactly how they explain our tax break to laypeople in their churches.<br />4. To demonstrate Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00318761483549322086noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2294170801673753291.post-31341748665856516542012-09-04T00:26:27.140-04:002012-09-04T00:26:27.140-04:00I think the effort to make an argument based on th...I think the effort to make an argument based on the Social Security tax is a semantic and accounting matter.<br /><br />Preachers sometimes whine that they have to pay both "halves" of the Social Security tax.<br /><br />Well, everyone else can just as easily claim they pay both "halves" as well because if the employer wasn't, as an accounting matter, making like he was Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2294170801673753291.post-52822905131820356082012-09-03T23:44:17.451-04:002012-09-03T23:44:17.451-04:00Most pastors pay the full 15% Self Employed Social...Most pastors pay the full 15% Self Employed Social Security (paying their part and the "employer" part). The housing allowance helps with this a tiny bit. So on the social security side the pastor still pays 15% on that housing allowance.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2294170801673753291.post-59074683039008700492012-09-03T23:39:46.194-04:002012-09-03T23:39:46.194-04:00I guess I am a little confused what you are trying...I guess I am a little confused what you are trying to accomplish here? I have met more pastors struggling financially than I have met rich ones. I also find it interesting that this has become so important to you after you retired. <br />Thanks for listening.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2294170801673753291.post-66558979424816695832012-09-03T21:37:57.188-04:002012-09-03T21:37:57.188-04:00Constitutional scholars were coming out of the woo...Constitutional scholars were coming out of the woodwork over ObamaCare.<br /><br />Here's another opportunity.<br /><br />If neither party wants to change IRC 107 and wants to maintain an income tax exclusion exclusively for the "clergy class", they can certainly say so; and whether they approve of million dollar allowances and allowances for "basketball ministers".<br /><Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2294170801673753291.post-37120048364504233662012-09-03T21:10:03.163-04:002012-09-03T21:10:03.163-04:00I am inclined to stick with the pay levels of full...I am inclined to stick with the pay levels of full time senior pastors as being relevant to the conversation.<br /><br />The tax break is a big deal economically to some ministers and I don't see either party being agressive in rolling back this longstanding item in our tax policy. <br /><br />I do see that the general credibility of clergy as a group diminished by a small proportion of very Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00318761483549322086noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2294170801673753291.post-53356174592815981182012-09-03T15:26:27.534-04:002012-09-03T15:26:27.534-04:00If the case ever gets the attention it deserves, i...If the case ever gets the attention it deserves, it may be that a lot of nice poor folk are going to be quite indignant about the argument that nice, poor preachers are more entitled to the government handout (income tax free housing) per IRC 107 than they are.<br /><br />The constitutional issue is determinable without regard to such criteria.<br /><br />That the law (IRC 107) allows a benefit Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2294170801673753291.post-61151161471824495472012-09-03T14:46:33.881-04:002012-09-03T14:46:33.881-04:00As far a the benefit to the community by living in...As far a the benefit to the community by living in it, that would support the exclusion for church provided housing but not the cash housing allowance. If the congregation is requiring the minsiter to live in church owned housing that rental value would most likely be excluded by Section 119 convenience of the employer which has broad application to all sorts of people.<br /><br />A very low Peter Reilly CPAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10199307021804040667noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2294170801673753291.post-49052429788163247142012-09-03T12:58:02.109-04:002012-09-03T12:58:02.109-04:00I certainly understand the issue that some have wi...I certainly understand the issue that some have with the compensation and tax break for pastors. I would point just a couple of things out. One is that it has been viewed that clergy were a group of people that would benefit a community by living in it. The government made it easier for them to live in a community because of the benefits of having a man of God live in a community. <br /><br />TheAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2294170801673753291.post-91026446604366227242012-09-03T12:55:48.013-04:002012-09-03T12:55:48.013-04:00Ooops. Meant to type "king for a day".
...Ooops. Meant to type "king for a day".<br /><br />There is a link to the military housing allowance table in my Work, Fight or Pray post.Peter Reilly CPAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10199307021804040667noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2294170801673753291.post-52744726887097532202012-09-03T12:52:26.376-04:002012-09-03T12:52:26.376-04:00There is some similarity between the housing allow...There is some similarity between the housing allowance for the military and clergy in that it probably has its roots in their historically being provided housing as part of the job and the cash payment be in lieu.<br /><br />The military housing allowance is different however in that it is not at all troubling for the government to be involved in determining who is and is not entitled to it.<br /Peter Reilly CPAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10199307021804040667noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2294170801673753291.post-55129672350649151922012-09-03T12:26:56.660-04:002012-09-03T12:26:56.660-04:00When I am asked about clergy housing allownace, I ...When I am asked about clergy housing allownace, I share that the government has long given clergy the same housing allowance tax break that military get. One day it will (and should be) eliminated. However, for now, I would be a poor steward if I did not take advantage of every tax deduction available, just as you, or any Christian would be.<br />Also, a separate check does not to be written as Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2294170801673753291.post-41308037984022417222012-09-03T10:20:41.603-04:002012-09-03T10:20:41.603-04:00I would like to see churches as well as pastors ge...I would like to see churches as well as pastors get honest about clergy compensation. When looking for a staff member we had a big discussion on the amount to pay a youth minister. The total package (salary, housing, insurance, retirement, reimbursables, etc...) came to an amount slightly higher than the published salary of a beginning school teacher. Finally,a member of the group who worked in Jack Carvernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2294170801673753291.post-53216424653565351352012-09-03T09:40:24.643-04:002012-09-03T09:40:24.643-04:00The difference between clergy and teachers as to h...The difference between clergy and teachers as to how each pays taxes (the higher self employed taxes for Social Security vs employee taxes where half is in theory paid by one's employer) is the economic argument to justify the HA. But one cannot ignore the reality here that clergy have their dual status because they insist on it not because it is imposed, sort of like the man who murdered hisAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00318761483549322086noreply@blogger.com